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Holly:
So the structure we talked about with debriefing the Cold War was facts, stories, lessons learned. What are you looking at? Are you smiling flirtily with me or you?
Jason:
You.
Holly:
Yeah, me too. Anyhoo. Okay. So facts, stories, which is a process we use all the time with conflict resolution. Facts, stories, feelings, request and we were talking about the facts and stories with lessons learned as a debrief structure for the Cold War. And I'll start with facts, because I've been thinking about my gift for just rattling off facts because I remember, is the performance thing I do.
Jason:
Which can be frustrating as hell, because you cartoonize what my experience was of it.
Holly:
And it's got enough accuracy in it to be humiliating?
Jason:
There's humiliation there. There's shame, there's seeing things that you did. It just feels loaded.
Holly:
Yeah, it's definitely loaded. A lot of what I experience from you is facial expression and tone, and the words are perfect. So I can't make the facts fully seen without addressing the facial expression and the tone, but I can use words to describe the facial expression and the tone instead of performing it, even though I love performing and you know I do, and I'm good at it, and it's fucking funny.
Jason:
You are good at it, and it's hard to deny that. I wish I had it. Being able to recall and recite and photographically understand exactly what was said and how it was said with facial expressions is an amazing skill. And I can't imagine two people in a relationship or even interacting that both have that skill. I just don't think it's as available.
Jason:
I think a lot of people like me interpret things. It's how we feel. When we're interacting, I get into my head 50% of the time thinking about, "What is she thinking?" And at that point, I don't have any recollection of actually what you're saying. There's a level of envy that comes with that. For me, it's feeling of inadequacy. I have to rely on you, and that reliance is difficult. If my ego flares and I want to blame you for something, it helps compound it.
Holly:
Yeah. Well, I can give the facts and try to make the performance part of the facts more factual and less trying to get a laugh.
Jason:
Okay.
Holly:
Okay. So I was really busy and up against a deadline that involved recording something. And recording and uploading and downloading and editing takes both silence in the house and bandwidth, it's very hard to do when North is home. Quiet is not his jam, and bandwidth streaming is what he wants to do on days off of school. I had a plan for him to be at school, and the snow day happened. So I was really stressed about meeting this deadline so I went into the bedroom, your bedroom with you and North and said, "I'm really stressed about this deadline. I need help."
Holly:
You said, "What do you need?" I described needing time when he was completely out of the house so that I could have silence, and then maybe a second shift or at least not using bandwidth. It wrapped around to me saying, "What can you do?" You rolled your eyes and huffed. We left it with you were going to help me get him out of the house for a couple of hours, but it was vague.
Holly:
I went to talk to you again, it was just me and you this time, no North. I have a story that you are going to be expecting to get up to go to the gym and take North out of the house for a couple of hours like eight or nine like you normally go. And I have a couple of hours of work in the morning to make the best use of the time that you're gone, so I'm thinking more like 11 or 12. And you rolled your eyes and you huffed and said, "Well, eight and nine is really different than 11 or 12." And I escalated my voice and was like, "I know that is why I'm trying to have this conversation with you."
Holly:
You said, "Well, what I don't want to do is be hanging on you." And I was like, "Well, if the whole point is that you're helping me, tell me what you can't won't do." I think you ended up saying, "I want to help you and I'm going to help you," and leaving it at that. And in the more morning, I came to tell you as I was getting in the shower, "I've got this much time before I'm ready to record, so it's a good time you've got this much time to get North out of the house, go do whatever you're going to do." You paused for a long time. And I said, "Thank you." And you paused for a long time before saying, "Yeah."
Holly:
I had very big feelings about it and was saying like, "I hate you," to you in my bathroom mirror by myself for a couple of days. And I was playing in my head the scene of me really showing up to help you when you had your first big job with your business and being on call and running around town and driving you stuff and doing it enthusiastically with my sustainable runoff solutions t-shirt, my muck boots. And I knew that the resentment was going to be a problem and I needed to express it, but I was trying to get through this deadline.
Holly:
So I got through the deadline and then I brought it up to you. And you were like, "Yeah, I didn't feel good about it either. I don't know, there might have been some misogyny, but I'm not sure. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think I wanted to help you, but there might have been some misogyny, I'm not denying that." it was a very dissatisfying conversation from my perspective, and we parted ways about it.
Holly:
And then you came back a day later maybe, later that day and said, "I want to talk about it if you have some time." And came into the basement with your journal and said, "I've been journaling about it so I have some something to reference. I see here that you were anxious and cut and short. And when asked myself do I think that I didn't want to help her or that was she anxious and controlling? And I think it's that you were anxious and controlling.
Holly:
And I said, "Good out." But I kept talking and you were like, "See, that's why we can't have these conversations." Sorry, I performed that a little bit. And you got up to leave, but you kept saying things and I was walking towards you. And I said, "I hate you." And you said, "That's not good," and left. And we kept everything functional, good morning, grocery meetings, money meetings, parenting North, everything was functional, but we didn't really talk for 11 days. That was a lot harder that I thought it was going to be. Do you think you need to correct facts or add to facts or do you want to go back [inaudible 00:06:58]
Jason:
I don't know if I can correct facts, but I really appreciate the way you described it. I think without the cartoonization of my reactions, I think it was much better.
Holly:
Ah, good to know.
Jason:
Hopeful.
Holly:
Have to do my performing somewhere else.
Jason:
I think there is a time and place for your performances. I just don't know if it's when we're trying to recollect stories that have emotional triggers. There was a moment in the bedroom my belief was let's just play it by ear, and that did not work well for what you want. You wanted specifics. You wanted to know that I was going to be out at this time or somewhere that was clearly meeting your needs, and go ahead.
Holly:
Just play it by ear, that means someone will be ready and say so, and then it'll happen then. It could have been play it by ear if it was my ear, we couldn't get clarity about that. Just let it be whenever somebody's ready or did you mean let it be whenever I'm ready?
Jason:
My belief when I said the statement was to have, instead of having a strict schedule as to when we're going to go to the gym and when we're going to do other, we were also talking about sledding that day because I felt like you had, it's all hard to, again, it's how I was feeling. So it's hard to recollect exactly what was said and what was not. But I remember saying something along the lines of, "Let's play it by ear because it doesn't sound like I have all the understanding of what you're expecting in the morning and throughout the day." So when you need us to go, I will go and then we can be back when you're okay.
Holly:
That sounds like are you [inaudible 00:08:46] to me saying something.
Jason:
Of course. And I know it's begging it up because I don't remember. And it is a tendency of mine and it absolutely adds to these types of, it's not adding to it right now and I hope it's not. What I'm trying to do is call out probably one of the main triggers that I sat on. I sat on this belief, this feeling I have that it didn't matter that I was gone. It mattered that I planned it out, and you had a level of confidence that it was going to meet your needs. It was what I was thinking, it's not necessarily what was stated or you know.
Holly:
Why wouldn't that be? Yeah. I did have an expectation that what you did met my needs, that was the whole entire thing I needed. That's like me saying, "Yeah, I'll go to Home Depot and buy a leaf blower and bring it to your work site, but I'll do it when I want to." That doesn't make any sense. If the whole point is that I'm trying to help you, the idea of well, you just want me to do it when you want me to do it, feels like nonsense to me. It doesn't feel like just a miscommunication.
Jason:
I threw out something like, "We're going to go sledding and we'll be out of the house, don't worry." You said, "You're not going to be able to stay out that long. It's going to be cold tomorrow and you're going to come back and interrupt me," or something like that. And then at that point, I threw out my proverbial hands and said, "Well, I'll just play it by ear. I'll out of your way. I won't be around." Because I tried to lay out an idea, it didn't have enough specificity because I didn't put enough specificity into it. I didn't design, I didn't say I was going to warm up the van and have a movie ready and do the work to make sure we don't have to come back here and A, take bandwidth and B, disturb your production. I didn't do any of that.
Jason:
I didn't give your importance of this effort any time. And because I didn't, I said it in a laissez-faire. "Well, why don't we just go sledding tomorrow during your time. It will be out of the house." And I think that felt way too vague for you and without an need type of boundaries to understand that it's not going to all come crashing down when you're in the middle of your production, and we come stomping in with our wet boots and you having to deal with your stuff. So you wanted some more detail and I wasn't there yet.
Jason:
So I was like, "Fine. I'll just do whatever you want." And at that moment, it tinged in me she doesn't just want us out of the house, she wants to control it. She wants to have a say in it. And that's where my mind went, because that's what my mind does is my ego is trying to find why she is manipulative and controlling. Because any time uncomfortable dialogue or uncomfortable conflict with somebody, anytime I'm in a victim role, and it's just the way I was raised and it's the way that I am. So it's like the calling, called arms as soon as somebody has expectations of me. Well, yet, now I got to the ego flares and I almost feel like one of those Jurassic Park dinosaurs with the big hoods that come out of me. Yes.
Holly:
My stories were that I was desperate and doomed, just jinx. Like, what the fuck? What are the chances a snow day? I really need his help, so I really need North's help. They're going to be hard to work with. And then once the conversation got going, like he doesn't want to partner with me on this. He doesn't want to, he isn't going to say, "No, I won't help you." But there is resistance. And I feel it and know it. And we're going to have to act like it's not there because he doesn't want to admit it and work around it.
Holly:
And I got to figure out a way to get my shit done and not have this sabotaged. I'm not getting any back and forth. We're not going to problem solve. It's not going to be like, well, he could probably sled for a little while, but there needs to be a backup plan because it's too cold to expect it and he's going to be out for two hours. I think we're going to need about two hours. So maybe you could download something, whatever. I could not get that conversation going.
Jason:
I was resistant to it, to be honest. There was a lot of resistance to going down the path of that. As soon as I felt like she needed something, and it's funny where that ends up and I'm sorry for interrupting but.
Holly:
That's okay. Go with it.
Jason:
It comes from a place of that ting, that reason why my hood had to flare and all of that was because you are expecting equality out of our relationship. You're expecting real dialogues and not expecting have to be sweet because you didn't approach me with sweet puppy, dog eyes and desperation in your voice. I was taken back with not only jealousy, but misogyny. And I was like, "Wow, she doesn't even see the significance of this. It's not even that big a deal to her. She doesn't realize how a big deal is for me to help her out on my free day. This is her week to watch North. So there's all kinds of things that she should be groveling about. And because she's groveling, I want these tokens. I want these chips that she owes me in this I'm going to have all of these good obligations from her. This is going to be wonderful."
Jason:
And you didn't do any of that, so I got really upset. You came in with need, but you didn't come in with the type of desperation of like, "Oh, I'll do anything." That's what I wanted, and my misogyny wanted. I wanted that level of wanting to get down on your knees and give me a blow job right then and there.
Holly:
Right. Yeah. Like, "I have a need. I am so sorry. I am so sorry. I would never normally. I would never normally need something, is there anything I can do?" That's funny because I guess we're now into the insights. As soon as I told you, "I hate you." I was like, "No, I'm in trouble. No, I'm in trouble. I'm in so much trouble. I'm in so much trouble, oh my God. I'm in trouble. I'm in trouble. But he, but he, but he, but he, but he, but he, and now I'm in trouble. I'm going to get in trouble for this." It was so North. Like when north is so that somebody else got off and he's in trouble, just overwhelming fear of I'm in trouble. So I got a-
Jason:
Well, a sense of injustice as well.
Holly:
Yes. And sense of injustice about it. So is it okay if I perform myself?
Jason:
Yes, absolutely.
Holly:
Okay. So I scheduled a like, "Oh, shit. Shit just went down. Shit, shit, shit." Shit to Kim, the counselor. Like, "Can you get me in?" But the takeaway was these two points in the story where I had a clue that I was repeating my bad part of the pattern. And one of them was after having identified that what I felt like a conflict and not really feeling good about you wanting to help me or thinking through the details to make sure it didn't get sabotaged.
Holly:
I like egg shell walked back up to you and was like, "I have a story that you think it's going to be eight or nine, but I'm thinking it's going to be 11 or 12. I just want to try again to get on the same page with you." It wasn't like any part of that conversation was necessarily bad or dysfunctional, but how I felt that I was walking on eggshells was a clue that I actually was trying. I was bringing sweet. You wanting sweet kicks off a pattern in me of feeling like I need to bring it.
Jason:
But you didn't bring sweet.
Holly:
I didn't bring a lot of sweet, but I did. In my feelings, I was deferring. I had my tail tucked. I was like, "I have a story and I want to make sure we're on the same page." I was doing. I was adding more labor. I was showing up to serve you. Again, that was the feeling. I am aware that my words weren't sweet, but that I had a urge to sweeten it up and defer and make it nice for you. Try again, make up. It's ironic I guess that what you wanted and didn't feel like you got enough of. Kim was like, "Uh-huh." When I even went to give any of it. When I even felt it, when I even just tried to be like in my feelings, "Are you okay? Are you mad at me?"
Jason:
Pinging on something that I wanted, and maybe your half-ass show up to it. It was like, "Oh, there it is. She better dull it on. Oh, it's not coming. All right, fuck her then."
Holly:
Yeah. Bringing it wasn't going to solve anything, it was just more of the same. Bringing sweet, because that's what you wanted would just be going backwards for us. But I did, and then was resentful that it wasn't received. And then the other clue that she pointed out was the waiting, the feeling of between me bringing it up, me saying like, "I don't feel good about how that went down and good luck getting help for me again," that conversation. Remember that conversation in the kitchen?
Holly:
Between that and you being like, "Do you have some time to talk?" And internally, I had the feeling of waiting for you to decide whether we were in fight or not. Waiting for you to decide whether you had been resistant and misogynistic about helping me or not. When really I'm clear on that already.
Holly:
I can't remember what I said, but Kim's response was, "Can't he have a different view than you do." So that feeling of waiting to find out from you whether we were in a fight or not was handing over to you, the assessment of the situation when I didn't need to do that. I already had my own assessment of the situation mixed with needing you to believe my assessment of the situation, which that is what blows it up and what makes it be like we can't have this conversation.
Holly:
And I certainly needed years, and years, and years, and years of walking away from conversations with you. And now where I am and where I feel like Kim is helping me consider is can I stay in the conversation and just see it differently than you do? Can you say, "Well, I've decided I looked at it and I thought about whether you were controlling and anxious or I didn't want to help you, and I decided it's because you're controlling and anxious." Can I stay centered as you say that to me and say, "That is not how I see it," and see what happens.
Jason:
The insight that I gained probably was threefold. First is there's no negotiating with my ego. Maybe negotiating even is not the right term, it's more appeasing. Like what can I do to soothe that in me? The metaphor of the ego being a powerful ally when needed like a guard dog having a clear role and a job and then being able to train it when it's not needed. A good guard dog does not need to be appeased when it doesn't get to rip the hand off somebody. A good guard dog simply goes back behind the owner when it's told it's off duty and presents a welcoming demeanor. It doesn't need to have any role at that point. It just stands behind.
Jason:
And what I tried to do through the 11 days that I didn't talk to you was try to justify why that was okay, why believing that you owing me something and not being sweet enough and feeling like I'm inadequate if I don't get something in return from your desperation is where I struggled. And it just took time. This was a difficult one because my ego wants to show up in all kinds of different shapes and forms. And this one was just probably the one that's trickiest for me and showing up as a, "Strong leader," that expects subordinates around them to hotel whenever they have needs. Yeah.
Holly:
Yeah. I heard you.
Jason:
I said that, that's me.
Holly:
You said it, I heard it. I heard it. It felt pointed at the screen and not pointed at me. Projected up onto the wall so we can both see it.
Jason:
Yeah. That's the truth. That's what's in there. That's what I learned. That's the behaviors that I noticed for my first two decades of experience. It doesn't go away, even if I find somebody that I want a relationship with, that's different than that. It's still there. And I think that's the work that I do every day is to recognize my ego and I adjust. I had it written up here so I remind myself.
Holly:
Yeah, because it's about the guy that the tack dog is standing behind. It's about that guy showing up. I agree with you that there's no negotiating or appeasing your ego, and what I want to focus on doing is inviting the other guy forward.
Jason:
Well, that's number two. That's the second thing that I learned is if there's no negotiating with it, it really takes the owner to step up. It took a long time to get out of the victim role and to step up and recognize, not even recognize fault, but just recognize curiosity. Just recognize that wait a minute, there's something else here that I'm not seeing. Fortunately, we have the ability to do that without it being World War III in our house, Cold War is fine.
Jason:
It's uncomfortable and it doesn't make me happy and I would much rather be connected with you than not, but having our lives be the way it is so much better. It just allows me do the work that I need to do to be able to find my spine and be able to see the truth. To go into that dynamic with some curiosity and to see the true expectations. Because even if I dabbled in the idea that I was repeating a misogynistic pattern of expectations of you needing to count out, grovel at my feet for a favor, I couldn't stay there long because it was so full of shame. So it just simply took 11 days for me to learn it, for me to see it.
Holly:
And 11 days of new harm not being added. The structure that we have, I feel like keeps the chaos low, keeps the function high, keeps the trains on time. It doesn't necessarily do anything to solve the problem except give space to regulate, which is the most important part of solving the problem and avoid adding new chaos. There's still stress in the house and everybody can feel it, but it's not chaos and conflict and things falling apart and falling through the cracks because of this enormous amount of structure that we have and agreements.
Holly:
And we also, we ended it quickly. The end of it was quick and we ended it by email, which has also got the super structure vibe to the way we live. What do you think is the value in conflicting on email as much as we do?
Jason:
It provides a form of dialogue that is less reactionary, more thought. It's funny because it was Valentine's Day that I ended up sending you that letter. And I was planning and I was drafting a Valentine's Day email days before. I drafted it and redrafted it. And inevitably on the 14th, it finally flowed because I was able to get that dog in control. It just all came out and it reminded me of my stories, of my childhood and experiencing that situation of that project that my father helped me with, the blue whale project.
Jason:
It's funny how it worked out that way. Having a journal and then even drafting a letter from day, it could have been from day one and then that not sending it until you're absolutely sure that it's exactly what you want to say. It really helped just having the confidence behind it to know that it truly is the word that you intend rather than an only charged response of an ego flare.
Holly:
Or my pattern would be sending something or saying something to make nice, to add sweet, to cycle it, to try to get past it sooner. So I had to not do that.
Jason:
So you had interest in that though?
Holly:
Less with time, but I do still feel the urge to make up and the urge to find my fault, which it wasn't that hard in this one. And it wasn't like I didn't do anything wrong. So focusing on that. Me, my conditioning is find the thing I did wrong and focus on that until I feel worse enough about myself to come crawling to you with my tail tuck and make it nice. And that urge and instinct is there only like as a ghost at this point, but it's still a little bit there. The thing I feel more than that instinct is trust. I'll spin out, I'll be like, "Oh my God. He's never going to get better. We're fighting again, we're going to get divorced."
Holly:
Like you were saying you can feel it and then it doesn't stay. You express it even just internally in your own head. And you're like, "Bullshit." And my head was like, "Bullshit. You're not going to divorce him over this. You're not. So you can pretend you are, if you need to spiral around that drama for a little while, and then just choosing not to."
Holly:
Just being like, "Yeah, we're not going to hit rock bottom at this point because it's functional and I'm pissed and this is annoying. And I know what I need to do. I know I need to just turn my focus on myself and my goals and my work and take care of myself and take care of the fact that I can't sleep as well because we're in a fight." That was the main physical symptom I had wasn't losing sleep, just restless sleep.
Jason:
Yep.
Holly:
Taking care of that. Just accepting that like, "Yeah, you're going to not going to sleep as well when you're in a fight as when you're fully connected. It's a continuum and that's the truth. And what can you do to tighten up your sleep hygiene and take care of yourself and try to sleep because this is not permanent."
Jason:
No, I would say that would be the third. I said that I had three points that I wanted to make, and this is the third point.
Holly:
Oh, bring it around.
Jason:
Is the trust in the relationship. When there is old patterns, old coding that I'm playing out, and there's nothing more that I want than to try to mold you and berate you and force you into a character of something that I'm familiar with comfort is meek and just willing to do whatever's necessary to make things peaceful. Luckily, I didn't marry that. I didn't marry anything close to that. And you, in fact, have everything opposite of that.
Jason:
You're strong, you're independent, you're pre willed. You're not going to be controlled by anyone. And I have a lot of confidence that I won't stay in my construct. I won't be ruled by my ego because I have such a strong desire to be with who I marry. There's a trust there, there's a confidence and trust that it will work out and we'll get back to a point where we can talk civilly to each other and we'll gain some insight from this experience. And we'll get a little bit stronger and a little bit closer. That's really refreshing. Even after going to the brink between us. I don't feel like that's even a possibility anymore.
Holly:
The trust is the best feeling. Before we stop recording, is there anything else you want to say?
Jason:
I love you.
Holly:
I love you too. Okay. I'm going to run upstairs and touch you.
Jason:
Okay.
Holly:
Okay, bye.
